March 12, 2007 minutes
|
MEMBERS PRESENT: |
|
Jim Sparkes, Bryan Wyatt, Kevin Chaney, Gary Mohr, Mark Jarboe |
|
|
|
|
|
GUEST PRESENT: |
|
Bill Schweitzer-IAPMO, Jay Zimmerscheid-Treanor Arch., Kenny Breithaupt, Jim Carpenter, Mike Porter, John Craft, Janet Smalter, Elizabeth Torres, Jay Woodward-ICC |
|
|
|
|
|
STAFF PRESENT:
EX-OFFICIO: |
|
Rich Barr-LDCFM, Adrian Jones-Building Inspector, Victor Torres-Neighborhood Resources Director, Mark Mills-Plumbing Inspector
Patrick O’Brien, Mechanical Inspector |
|
|
|
|
Meeting called to order at 6:33 p.m.
After review, Wyatt stated that he thought there was a response by Barry Walthall that was missing in the contractor licensing section and would like to have it clarified. Wyatt made a motion to approve the minutes with the understanding that the clarification would be written in the next meeting minutes. Seconded by Sparkes, pass 4-0.
…Wyatt asked how the error was overlooked to the point that someone was appointed before the error was noticed. Wyatt stated that the copy of the ordinance that he received did not spell out that members from the trade boards would be appointed to the CLB.
Chaney stated that the copy he received from staff did have the trade board members and being part of the CLB.
Walthall stated that the copy that is published online and hard copy has the correct language that includes the trade board members as CLB members. There was a draft that went out before it went to the boards that contained previous language that did not specify the trade board members being included in the CLB.
Wyatt stated that the error should have been caught before someone was appointed to the CLB.
Walthall agreed.
Discuss with ICC representative about concerns with ICC
Chaney stated that he talked with Mayor Amyx about scheduling this meeting one day before the City Commission was to discuss the International Codes. Chaney stated that in Victor Torres’ letter rescheduling the meeting before the City Commission discussion to give adequate time for the boards to discuss the International codes. One day was not adequate time to talk with the ICC representative and have a discussion about the meeting with him. There had been earlier attempts to have a joint meeting with the other trade boards, but it had not happened. Chaney stated that the Mayor agreed with him and that the other Commissioners had talked and they were going to hear a report from a committee that was going to recommend the City proceed with the International Codes and they were going to table the issue and give the boards six months to review the codes to see what they thought. He felt that six months would be adequate time to review the codes.
Torres responded that the City and the trade boards have been working on the code adoptions for three years, since March 2004. The City Commission directed staff and the board to proceed with the International Codes. There has been adequate time to review the codes.
Chaney agreed and added that the board had asked to have an ICC representative attend the meetings many times and this is the first time he has been here. He stated that he is happy the meeting is now happening.
Sparkes thanked Jay Woodward of ICC for agreeing to attend the meeting and to answer questions for the board. He mentioned that there is a comment about gypsum products for a plenum, he would like to know what they call a plenum.
Woodward responded that there is a difference between the Uniform Code and the International Code and the materials in a plenum and the definition. He stated that the mechanical guy that he talks to says that the codes use the term plenum incorrectly and that the term plenum should refer to the box on top of the furnace that distributes the air to the ducts. The term plenum that is used in the code generally refers to a building cavity that is used as a return or supply.
Sparkes stated that they have used it as a return air, but not as a supply air. Limits are set up for 180 degrees and does not feel comfortable with the wording. He does not want any misunderstanding on the materials that can be used.
Woodward responded that gypsum products being limited to 125 degrees, that they would not be able to use it on top of the furnace.
Sparkes asked if that issue were to come up, could that person call you and discuss it or would he have to go through the inspection department to get answers on this.
Woodward stated that anybody can call him, but what he says doesn’t mean anything because final approval is left up to the local jurisdiction.
Sparkes stated that the reason he was asking is because that the County(Douglas) was planning to adopt the codes that the city did and that interpretation at the County can be sporadic.
Woodward stated that the City should have a board of appeals to hear issues from contractors. If an inspector has a bad interpretation then there would be avenues such as other inspectors, building officials, or as this body, to hear appeals of code interpretations.
Sparkes asked if they can call in and ask questions without being a member.
Woodward responded that ICC is a member driven group and technically to call in and get a phone interpretation, you would have to be a member. The City is a member, anybody can join as a member.
Chaney asked that since the City is a member, does that mean that the board would be a member.
Woodward responded that since the City is a member of ICC, the board members could call in under the City membership and get a phone interpretation. He also stated that some Cities prefer that the board members go through the jurisdiction for interpretations. The main reason for that is to know the question being asked and they may already have a local opinion or interpretation on the issue being raised.
Wyatt stated that he had previous questions to Jay when it was ICBO. Some times there may be occasions where a contractor needs a question answered quickly and local staff is not available, just to be able to get an interpretation on the intent of the code. He understands that he would still need to check with the local jurisdiction.
Woodward stated that when he was with ICBO, only Class A members could get written interpretations, now with ICC, any member can get phone and written interpretations. People can also post questions on the ICC website.
Sparkes asked if ICC offered continuing education other than through Johnson County Community College.
Woodward responded that they have a number of seminars and programs that are offered that earn continuing ed credits.
Chaney asked if ICC would be able to meet with the boards for free for code updates to review changes at code change cycles.
Woodward stated that they would be able to do that and ICC also publishes code updates for code change cycles.
Sparkes asked if there is a specific thing on duct sizing in the energy code.
Woodward replied that there is nothing in the energy code or the IMC that specifies duct sizing, the code refers to the ACCA Manual J for duct sizing.
Chaney asked if the code has references to Manual J.
Woodward said that Manual J is referenced in the code, he did not know the particular section. The problem he knew about was the insulation requirement for ducts and needing 2” liner and they were not increasing the size of the duct to accommodate for the insulation causing airflow problems.
Wyatt stated that he has had the most issue with the duct sizing problems when they have the increased efficiency but don’t have the airflow. Decreased airflow defeats the higher efficiency leading to high energy bills and decreased comfort with cold rooms because of poor airflow. There needs to be language in whatever code that can enforce the requirement of proper duct sizing in a quick and simple way during construction and inspections. The issue is that now problems are discovered after the fact and sometimes past the builder warranty and homeowners have to battle to get the problems corrected.
Woodward stated that the IMC references ACCA Manual D or “other approved methods” for residential buildings. Unless inspectors are checking final airflow volumes on finals, there is no way of knowing if there is adequate airflow. He does not know any jurisdiction that is doing that.
Wyatt stated that the City needs to find a way to correct the problems on the front end of the building.
Sparkes stated that several months ago the board did a comparison of the IMC and the UMC. The IAPMO rep was there to go over it and the board voted 5-0 for the Uniform. He asked what ICC had to offer in regards to the IRC.
Woodward replied that the codes are coordinated when the building code references the mechanical code back and forth to determine what life and safety issues need to be addressed. He is not as familiar with the IRC and would have to refer that question to someone else at ICC. The advantage of the IRC for general contractors is that they need to only reference the one book, the IRC.
Chaney asked what his take was on the merger of IAPMO and ICC and why he thought that didn’t happen.
Woodward replied that he thinks it is a good thing that the people want it because there is no reason to have more than one code. There is a lot of concern with the process issues and how the code is handled, public hearing versus committee meetings. The main issue is politics on a national level. He feels the two organizations do the nation a disservice by not getting together. The goal is admirable, it just depends on what are you willing to compromise to get to that point. Having been with ICBO before ICC and BOCA and SBCCI merging together to form ICC was also a very difficult process.
Wyatt stated that many people were disappointed that the merger did not take place.
Woodward stated that the main reason for the unsuccessful merger was that issues were agreed upon before getting the (ICC)membership a chance to vote on the agreements that were made. Woodward is hopeful that a merger can still happen.
Sparkes stated that he has spoken with several plumbers and has been told that the International is a lesser code, a couple of the issues is the venting and water supply.
Kenny Breithaupt stated that he agreed with those as issues the Plumbing Board has with the International Code.
Woodward responded that it has been a battle with the IPC to come to an agreement. The main advantage of the IPC is there are many more options as compared to the UPC. His question to the UPC would be why has there been so many code changes made to bring it closer to the IPC. He also mentioned a publication by IAPMO, 39 reasons to adopt the UMC. He stated that he disagreed with so many of the items that he wrote a rebuttal to all the items he disagreed with. Woodward stated that the two codes are getting closer and closer to being very similar. The main issue that he recalls is that the IPC allows more wet venting than the UPC. IPC allows minimum vent sizing or to use a design, but the UPC will also allow a designed system coming up to the same conclusion.
Wyatt asked who the chairman of the Plumbing Board was.
Carpenter replied that Frank Lewis was chairman.
Wyatt stated that he had heard that the only other main issue was the administrative part of the code because the two codes were so similar and to hear that there were other issues that he had not heard concerned him. He suggested having a joint meeting with the Plumbing Board to hear the concerns that they have. Wyatt asked that there have been some general questions about the International code, but nothing specific about it.
Sparkes stated the issues were that the vent sizing, the traps being sucked dry, water line sizing from one floor to the next.
Wyatt stated that these are the issues that they need to hear about.
Sparkes asked what the Plumbing board has issues with.
Jim Carpenter explained that the Plumbing Board reviewed the IRC and came to the venting chapter and discovered issues with it and then had discussions on how to address the issues, to either amend the code or go with the IRC because the two codes were completely different. The other issue was water pipe sizing. He had talked with a person that teaches a plumbing code class and under the IPC could put 12 people in a room with a water pipe sizing problem and get 12 different answers, and all of them be right.
Wyatt stated that the same thing could be true for calculating combustion air in the Mechanical Code.
Mohr stated that the uniform codes are more prescriptive as compared to the international codes being performance based and the issue is to get the right answer. A contractor will need to read the code and be able to find the answer. Each different contractor can take a different approach to get the right answer.
Carpenter stated that if the contractor out in the field has a different answer than the inspector, guess who wins.
Chaney agreed, the dictatorship, doesn’t lose. Chaney stated that he feels the UMC and the UPC has a democratic process and having the ICC will make a dictatorship and everybody is going to lose their voice. Everyone will be forced to become members, and pay (membership) fees. There is constant communication for journeyman and contractors, homeowners won’t be able to call ICC. No one will be able to contact ICC without paying a fee. IAPMO gives (the board)free classes and free books, IAPMO is at all the meetings. He also mentioned that contractors need to have a big stack of books with ICC where the contractor only needs one book with IAPMO. There are just so many issues that he was not comfortable with.
Woodward stated that this area is covered by the Heart of America Chapter and it offers several free classes for certain number of days of the year. He added that contractors from Johnson County are given free classes as part of their license fees. Many times the classes are offered to other people at a reduced rate.
Chaney asked if the Mechanical and Plumbing representative from ICC could come and answer the specific questions that Woodward could not answer.
Woodward replied that Billy has the plumbing knowledge and could come and answer the specific questions. The mechanical guys are either in Chicago or Los Angeles and can get the board in touch with the people in the office.
Chaney stated that the board has been asked for the past three years to look at the International code. The board has asked for a representative from ICC and this is the first time that it has happened. He also stated that Woodward coming is a big help, but if they could get someone else with more knowledge of mechanical would also help. The board has voted to move on with the 2006 UMC and is ready for adoption, now the Commission is going to ask the board to look at the ICC and they want to get the questions answered to be able to move on.
Woodward stated that if the board can get some questions written down and he’ll get them to the right people and get them answered. Since he is close by they send him, but can get anyone else with enough notice.
Sparkes stated that he would like to get the information he needs so he can make informed decisions.
Wyatt suggested to the board to get a list of questions written down and send to ICC and IAPMO and get some written responses. He also would like to keep the lines of communication open between the board and staff to get the issues resolved. Wyatt stated he doesn’t agree that staff is being a dictatorship either.
Mohr stated that it is not fair to have a person come in from the west coast to answer questions because the board is not comfortable. But to get some questions answered would be great.
Chaney agreed that the board should compile a list of questions to have ICC answer.
Wyatt stated that the issue is that the board has some questions and also the Commission is looking at making a change. But the board needs to work together with staff and ICC and make the best of the situation and just get through the process.
Woodward gave contact numbers for the mechanical representative who is based in California. Bob Gunther: 1-888-422-7233 Ext. 3259. Woodward also gave his Extension 3814.
Chaney asked if the Plumbing Board had questions would they ask the same guy.
Woodward stated that Gregg Gress is the plumbing guy and he is at the same number at extension 4343.
Chaney asked staff that if the board put some questions together, could they get them to ICC.
Staff responded yes.
Chaney stated that he appreciated that Jay Woodward could be at the meeting and will get a list of questions together. He then asked for public comment.
Breithaupt gave Woodward a scenario that a person could install work under the UPC where the IPC was enforced and be acceptable but a person could not install work under IPC where UPC was enforced and asked for a comment.
Woodward responded that since the IPC gives several options a person could use these options, but it would depend on what the inspector would accept when inspecting under the UPC that gives only one option.
Breithaupt commented that the City inspection staff work well with the contractors, but the (Douglas)County inspector, when given options, will never pass what is installed. It becomes frustrating when a contractor has followed the code and could still not pass.
Sparkes agreed and stated that he had gotten information from the County that the County plans to adopt the codes that the City does and that has him concerned.
Torres stated that he wanted to thank Jay for coming out and answering questions for the board. He also asked Woodward that based on the questions posed tonight, is there anything that is too difficult to not be amended.
Woodward responded that he didn’t think that there was any issue raised that could not be amended.
Wyatt stated that he acknowledges that the international code is more vague as compared to the uniform code being more prescriptive. In the past he stated that he felt that the code did need to be more black and white. Now that staff has worked well with the contractors and not had big issues that needed to be brought to the appeals process. His views have changed as far as the international and with staff. The concern with being vague and leaving it to the code official to make code interpretations, it makes people feel uneasy. Wyatt stated that he feels that some of the concerns are non-issues, there could be a concern in the county, but not in the city. He would like to see the specific concerns being brought up to see if there really is a difference.
Woodward stated that when a new code comes out, it’s something that everybody reads and discovers thing that they have never seen that may have been in the old code but was never read. Woodward agrees that when the code is vague, it can say whatever you want it to say.
Wyatt stated that right now, he can install a duct system that meets code, but does not perform. He still has a concern, and hopes it can be more enforceable.
Woodward reminded the board that the code is a minimum standard and only regulates health, safety and welfare.
The board thanked Woodward for coming.
Woodward stated that if they had any other questions, to let him know.
Chaney asked Bill Schweitzer if he would like to address the board or if he had any comments.
Schweitzer began by stating that the gas code is a separate code in the ICC family.
Chaney asked if the gas code is not in the IMC or the IRC.
Schweitzer responded that gas code is not in either one. Schweitzer also stated that the ICC codes do not have medical gas. He advised that if the board would like to make everything completely different they can do that. He stated that when the fire code(IFC) referenced the IMC, they wanted to make sure there was no conflict with the UMC, so they answered all of those concerns. He understands that they wanted to get the family of codes and it was a shame that the two codes could not come together. IAPMO is still ready to agree with the original terms of the merger, they are just waiting for ICC to come back to the negotiating table. The two organizations are spending a combined $10 million a year on the “Code Wars”, resources that could be spent on training. He mentioned the 39 reasons to adopt the UPC, he had not seen the publication and could not comment on it. He added that wet venting is acceptable to a point, but not as much as what is in the IPC and there are 200 code changes for the 2009 IPC. If you are a member of IAPMO, you can vote on code changes. Gas, water pipe, venting, are all specific in the UPC. It is difficult to size off of the I-Code. He stated that Wichita is adopting the Uniform codes along with the other I-Codes. He mentioned that when the UMC was developed in the 70’s, ICBO liked the code and decided to publish the code, IAPMO failed to keep the copyright. If IAPMO would have kept the copyright, there would still be one mechanical code for the nation. He mentioned that when you have the family of codes, you get all the cousins that go with it, all the books that have to go with it. All the ICC codes intermingle. The UPC is a stand alone code, the UMC is near stand alone other than the appendix J. He thought the board was going to require the J sheet on the job site for the inspector to make sure the ductwork is sized correctly. He hopes that the two codes can get together at some point in the future. He mentioned that contractors pay $200 a year to get the continuing education free, if not the charge is $60 per hour. Schweitzer said that he is at every meeting and can answer any question that they may have. IAPMO also provides free code books to not only the board, but also provide books to the city staff. IAPMO also offers training as requested by the City, not many people attended, but it was offered. Schweitzer stated that Bob Gunther is an expert in the mechanical code.
Mohr stated that Schweitzer mentioned earlier that the IRC did not cover gas and chapter 24 of the IRC is the gas chapter. The IRC is a one book source for the residential contractor.
Schweitzer mentioned that both the UPC and the UMC cover fuel gas and that in most jurisdictions where the uniform codes are adopted the plumbing and mechanical portions of the IRC are removed and use the uniform codes.
Sparkes asked about the issues that were in the fire code and had those been addressed.
Schweitzer replied that the issues with the fire code have been addressed.
Chaney asked about the 2006 UMC since it has been adopted by the board if it is done with legal or not.
Torres stated that he knows that it is in legal but did not know if they had started looking at it or not. He was aware that the legal services had been working on a supreme court case and had them pretty busy.
Chaney stated that when he had talked with the mayor, he had told that mayor that the board was moving on with the 2006 UMC to get it adopted and then look at the international code with an open mind. Chaney wanted to see if the city was still planning on with proceeding with the UMC.
Torres stated that there was no reason to believe that the process would not continue.
Miscellaneous
Mike Porter stated that he was there as a private citizen but that he was also a member of the Building Board. He asked the board if they have or have not reviewed the IMC.
Chaney replied that they were asked to review the 2003 UMC and the 2003 IMC and was ready to move on and the 2006 was almost available and tabled the 2003 UMC. When they got the 2006, they moved on with the adoption and is in legal now(awaiting adoption). Chaney stated that there were some fire and ventilation issues that were resolved with the 2006 UMC.
Porter restated his question after mentioning that the Building board has reviewed the 2003 IRC and IBC and the are reviewing the 2006 IRC as directed by the City Council.
Chaney stated that they had sheets showing their findings.
Porter asked that the board has requested a number of times to speak with a representative from ICC.
Chaney confirmed.
Porter stated that when the Building Board asked for an ICC rep, they were there at the next meeting. Porter inquired who they asked.
Chaney replied staff member Patrick O’Brien was given the request.
Porter asked that the city did not provide that for them.
Chaney confirmed.
Porter mentioned a Building Board meeting there was a meeting of the board chair’s but the Mechanical Board chair was not there but he heard tonight that they did.
Chaney replied that Bryan Wyatt was at the meeting.
Porter stated that he didn’t understand how the Mechanical Board was not aware of the positions of the other board’s.
Chaney replied that they were not aware until the last meeting. Which was on February 23,2007.
Porter stated that the chair of his board had told them last year at some point.
Wyatt stated that Sparkes was the chair the past two years and had represented the Mechanical Board chair meetings. Wyatt stated that he had attended the meetings as an individual with Sparkes. He represented the board at the last meeting of the chairs.
Chaney stated that the board had asked for joint meetings with the other trade boards, and it has not happened.
Porter stated that he found it strange that it had not happened.
Chaney referred the question to staff.
Staff responded that they did not know why that had not happened. Staff mentioned that there was one joint meeting a couple of years ago where there was a few members from the plumbing board and mechanical board but was unsure the subject of the meeting.
Chaney stated that staff member Adrian Jones was at one of those meeting when they had talked about it.
Jones confirmed.
Staff stated that they would have to look into why those meetings did not occur.
Chaney stated that the joint meeting would still be a good idea.
Porter stated that the frustrating part was that the Building Board had been working on the ICC for three years and have always made their position known. They don’t believe blended codes will work. Now he finds out the night before the City Council meeting that Chaney has gone through “back doors” to get the issue pushed back another six months.
Chaney stated that the minutes reflect the board requesting meetings several times. But also the board is still open to looking at the International and discussing the issues that they have. Chaney mentioned that the Mechanical Board would never tell another board which code to adopt. Each board should adopt the code that they see fit and so far, this board has decided to go forward with the UMC but are still willing to look at the 2006 IMC. But they would like to have a rep from ICC so they can ask the questions to them and then go over things with the different boards.
Porter stated that he believes that the board has been made aware of the numerous different references from the IBC and the IFC to the IMC.
Chaney asked staff about which list the board had been provided.
Staff stated that they had been provided with the list of references from the IFC to the IMC.
Wyatt stated that he believes that Torres has made an effort to have the chairs get together in an effort to make having a meeting more convenient instead of trying to have all the board members meet and discuss the issues. He stated that it would be difficult to get that many people together. He stated that individual board members had requested in the past to meet with the Plumbing Board, and the Building Board. He stated that having the chairs meet was the best possible solution instead of trying to get so many members together at one time.
Chaney mentioned that the Mechanical Board did meet with the Fire Board a couple of times, but not meet with the Building Board.
Wyatt stated that most of the boards were represented at the chairs meeting.
Torres confirmed Wyatt’s comments that they had received the board’s request to meet, and decided to have the chairman’s meet instead of trying schedule all the board members together. The chairmen would represent the boards at the meeting and report back to the respective boards and they have been meeting for the past six months. All the different boards knew the position of the other boards and that the Plumbing and Mechanical boards were leaning to the Uniform codes.
Wyatt stated that on occasion, he was asked to sit in on the discussion of the chairman’s meeting and also had represented the Mechanical Board at one time.
Sparkes stated that he remembered attending at least one of those meetings.
Wyatt stated that he would like together with staff and all the board to come up with a solution.
Adrian Jones stated that the IFC and the IBC ordinances have been drafted without any amendments pertaining to the mechanical code, so those issues will still have to be worked out. Also with the 2006 UMC being submitted for review, there will be a “logjam” awaiting direction from the boards on how to proceed.
Rich Barr address the board stating that they have sent a letter to City staff requesting the fire code be placed on the City Commission agenda. The IFC ordinance has been reviewed by legal services, a copy has been sent to the state fire marshal for review and has been approved. He also stated that there were no amendments that reference the UMC, one of the goals of the Fire Board was to have the ordinance with the fewest number of amendment as possible. The board was able to work down the number of amendments from roughly 60 to 28. Barr stated that most of the issues arise out of the amendments. So reducing the number of amendments reduces the number of mistakes. The board chose not to amend the now 71 references to the IMC. If the City Commission directs the fire board to wait and to reference the UMC, the number of amendments will go from 28 to 99. Barr stated that it is difficult to stay with a ten year old code and he will keep pushing the IFC until the Commission either says O.K. or wait for six months, then he will wait.
Chaney stated that he believes that they(City Commission) are going to make us(Mechanical Board) look at the International and make the amendments. Until that happens, they will stick with the 2006 UMC.
Barr states that the fire board has been working since March of 2004 and wants to get current. He stated that he believes there are a lot of things in the IFC that will be good for the City of Lawrence. Barr stated that he does not want to wait six months but if he is told to, he will.
Chaney stated that it may not be six months, but up to six months for the process to take place.
Mohr asked Barr if he was aware of any requirements in the fire code that are not covered in the mechanical code.
Barr said he was not. He also stated that he is not familiar with the mechanical code and if the amendments have to be made, he will rely on the expertise of the Mechanical Board and IAPMO.
Mike Porter stated that unofficially the Building Board has taken a similar position to have the smallest number of amendments as possible.
Jones mentioned that smoke-control systems is a big issue in the UMC.
Chaney asked Schweitzer if that was true.
Schweitzer responded that he would have to check in the 2006 UMC to be sure.
Wyatt stated that it would be a good idea to include that concern in the list of questions for ICC. Wyatt stated that the board need to get it done and move on.
Wyatt also wanted to recognize the new member Mark Jarboe. Introductions were made.
Motion to adjourn made by Wyatt, seconded by Mohr, passed 5-0. Meeting adjourned at 8:25 p.m.